The Daniel Mazur Podcast

When you are playing a sport and you

think in the future,

you lose, you gotta focus on the moment.

And I know that I was a pitcher,

so I had to focus on every pitch.

And if you're a hitter,

you're focusing on every

pitch that comes your way.

I don't care if

you're a basketball player

focusing on your shot,

a football player focusing on the ball

that you're trying to

catch for a touchdown,

you gotta focus on the moment in time.

And if you veer away from that,

that's when we start failing.

(upbeat music)

Josh, it's great to have you on today.

Really excited to hear

about your journey so far,

what's next, and before

all that, how it all began.

I know that you were

pretty big into baseball

at the very start.

Could you share a little bit about

the early arc of life in baseball?

I wanted to be a baseball player

like so many kids growing up.

That was my dream.

My first word was Bill Buckner.

He played first base on

the Chicago Cubs at the time.

Wow. Later went on

to the Red Sox and

certainly played a role

in the Mets victory in the World Series.

A little bit later on.

But for me, life was all about baseball.

When I woke up, I was

thinking about baseball.

I went to sleep thinking about baseball.

Little League was the

most important moments

of my childhood.

I was playing for my life, I felt like.

Far too serious.

And I certainly cared a

lot more than the other kids.

And a long time ago, I was pretty good.

No longer.

(laughs) But a long, long time

ago, I was pretty good.

And it certainly was a dream of mine,

through my childhood

and into college too.

Did you find yourself

being obsessive with baseball?

At the time I was, at the time I was.

For what I'm doing now,

I can kind of feel like

little 12 year old Josh

in me a little bit, just thinking, okay,

what can I do that puts

me at a different position

in terms of separating

myself from competitors?

How can I work harder?

How can I think differently?

What can I do to train

myself to be more effective

at the time pitcher than others?

So it was certainly

something that I just wanted

to excel at.

And I think maybe obsessive

could be the right word for it.

So were there any other

hobbies or obsessions you had

from a young age that sort of lent you

to where you are now?

You know, it wasn't hobbies, Daniel.

It was more of just

that I cared about animals,

but it wasn't in terms

of like some philosophy

or some deep book.

It was just, I was just

a kid and I just hated

when I saw an animal in pain.

I hated if I saw a documentary that

showed animal suffering,

driving down the road and

saw an animal on the side

of the road who was hit by a car.

I was just very sensitive just to the

idea of animals ever

being in a very bad situation,

especially at the hands of people.

I have maybe some type of

instinct against bullying

and maybe because I was

bullied when I was a kid.

And I just feel, and I

certainly felt at the time

that when people do

bad things to animals,

it's the ultimate act of bullying

because these animals don't have a voice.

They can't call the principal.

They can't have parents do

something to protect them.

They can't call the police or

the local state legislature.

They just are the ultimate victims.

And I think that

understanding also propelled me

to have even further

sensitivity just to the wrongness

whenever animals were harmed.

And that was at an early age.

I certainly, this is pre-internet.

And I didn't know the

expanse of which humans

could do some pretty

bad things for animals.

But I think my instincts

were always pretty good

about making sure that

we work to try to have

a more humane world.

Do you remember that first

moment of tremendous empathy

that you felt for animals,

a particular experience or memory?

The first thing that I can think about

is just being around my

dogs that I grew up with.

I had a dog named Hector.

He was a big Saint

Bernard the size of a bear.

And when you're a little boy,

these dogs are bigger in your view

than maybe they are when you're an adult

just because of the size differential.

And he never really liked me very much,

but he always liked my dad.

And I just remember

always trying to love him

and cuddle with him and pet him,

but he's never into it

with me, only with my dad.

But one day I saw the documentary

about how animals are raised for food.

And I just felt this

connection in terms of

these animals being treated so poorly

compared to my dog at

home being treated so well.

And what really is the

difference between the two?

Shouldn't all animals be treated well?

And it was kind of that

connection that helped drive me

to care about the things

that I certainly care about today.

What a beautiful story.

What age were you when

you saw this documentary?

I believe I was about 15, 15 or 16.

And this is back in the VHS days.

Oh yeah.

So for some of your listeners

who may never have even

seen a VHS tape before,

but we actually went to a video store,

which also don't exist today.

And for whatever reason, my friend and I

got this documentary and it was horrible.

It showed terrible things.

And I'm grateful forever for getting that

because without that,

especially in the 1990s,

it's not the easiest thing to come across

what's actually going

on behind closed doors

of these facilities

where animals are raised

and killed for food.

So it was by chance

that I saw that documentary

and grateful for it.

And it certainly changed my life.

And I was always leaning

in a certain direction,

but it really helped illuminate the path

that I was gonna go on.

Maybe jumping around a little bit here,

I think it'd be really

interesting to hear the story

of how you snuck in or

came in as an investigator

into one of these slaughterhouses.

I think that story's really interesting.

Well, one of my first

jobs working to help animals

was as an undercover investigator.

And so these facilities

treat animals so poorly,

whether inside factory farms

where 99% of animals are raised,

these are giant windowless sheds,

where tens of thousands, sometimes

hundreds of thousands

of animals are confined,

never taking a step outside,

never seeing sunlight,

never feeling the grass

underneath their feet.

So inside these

warehouses, bad things are going on.

Inside the slaughterhouses,

other bad things are going on too.

And big animal agribusiness

knows that ordinary Americans

would not like to know what's happening.

And they'll be appalled.

And they know that certainly their

products would suffer

in the marketplace if

the truth was out there.

And so it was very hard,

and it's still to this day

very hard to ever get footage

of what's actually happening.

I think we should all be

concerned when that's the case,

and we're putting things in our body,

that those that are

producing those products

don't want anyone to see how it's done.

And so back then,

Daniel, what we tried to do

is to get jobs in facilities

and have equipment to

document what was occurring.

So as one example, I got

a job in a slaughterhouse,

it was a chicken slaughterhouse.

And I was hooked up with a hidden camera.

And it was for a big chicken company.

So I remember waking up

super early in the morning,

the shift started, I think

about 4.30 AM, if I recall.

Groggy, nervous, had this

equipment all strapped to me

to be able to film what

was going on without others

knowing what was

happening within the facility.

Driving in the dark in the

early morning, getting there.

And then walking into this

big chicken slaughterhouse,

you walk in kind of

through these big doors

to get within the big facility.

And then within it, there's a section

where the animals are killed.

So I was just waiting in the locker room

as they gave you the

type of overalls to wear

and the hair nets to

put on and the gloves

to cover your hands.

And my anxiety was rushing, just nervous

that I was gonna be caught, I was nervous

what I was gonna see.

And eventually they

brought me and the other workers

into what's called the shackling room.

And that's the room

where birds are shackled

before they're killed.

So I was right in line with, if I recall,

maybe eight, 10 other

workers where my waist was,

there was a conveyor belt.

And I looked to my left.

And in my left, at the

end of the conveyor belt

goes to the outdoors

where the chickens I could see

were dumped by this giant

truck onto the conveyor belt.

So this massive white was approaching me.

This is the first day on the job.

And my heart's racing and racing.

And I could see as I got closer,

workers started to shackle the birds.

And they were getting most of the birds

until one bird got

through to me, I was on the end.

And I knew that was the

moment that I would have to

shackle the first bird for me.

So I grabbed her leg

and I could tell just

and grabbing her leg that

her legs were all twisted

because chickens in the meat industry,

their legs are all disjointed

and incapable of standing on

because of the selective breeding.

These chickens are so

big that they're full size

after just about 40 days.

So these legs that I'm

grabbing are all twisted.

They're certainly, in

some cases I look down,

they're broken.

And when I lifted up the bird,

she flapped her wings to try to escape.

She pecked at my hands.

She tried to scratch me

to try to remove herself

from this horrible situation she was in.

And I shackled her.

And that was certainly a

profound moment in my life.

Just thinking what we do

to overpower these animals

who did nothing to hurt us at all.

And the amount of fear

and pain we inflict on them

is just shameful.

And what also impacted me was knowing

that there's nothing more important,

at least for me

personally, than being effective.

Because whether I'm

effective or not made the difference,

whether future

chickens were gonna have to go

through the same type of

pain that this chicken did.

And so it was no longer a philosophy

or interesting theoretical exercises

about the treatment of animals.

We're talking about real life here.

We're talking about actual animals

if most people would just

have them sit on their lap,

they would just pet them.

But within the food industry,

they're living in horrible conditions

and killed in ways that

would disgust our hearts.

So that was the first moments on the job.

I did numerous undercover investigations

and what's called open rescues

where I'd go into

facilities and remove animals

and try to get media attention on it.

And then once you see it firsthand,

you realize that no

matter what you see on film

or in photographs, being there,

the darkness is even

deeper than you can imagine.

That sounds difficult.

It sounds difficult to

have been able to do that

like yourself as a part

of your investigation.

How long did you do that, the shackling?

So that particular job, I was there for,

if I recall, a little over a month.

And there were other jobs that I did

throughout several years,

whether it's picking up the birds

and putting them in

cages to be put on trucks,

to be sent to slaughter,

or doing the open rescues

that I mentioned earlier

where many years ago, what I would do

was just go into these

big barns, their warehouses,

and go in there in

the middle of the night,

document how these animals are treated,

take some of the birds who

were in the most dire need

of medical attention to a vet,

and then eventually take

those birds to a sanctuary

to live out their life.

And the idea, and

this is the early 2000s,

was we could get some

good attention on this issue.

It was very hard for anyone

to ever even know what was going on,

but by doing those

things, by being open about it,

saying, "Listen, hi, I'm Josh Bock,

"I'm out here with these birds."

It got a lot of coverage,

whether it's the

Washington Post or New York Times,

and it expanded from there.

So that was the

certainly strategies we used

in the early 2000s to

start getting attention

for these animals.

I understand the emotional component

that you've mentioned so far.

Seeing these different animals,

I would pet a chicken if

it was in my lap, for sure,

and I would hate to

see it be put to death.

From an ethical standpoint,

is it fundamentally a

defending of consciousness

and sentience, and if so, how

do you find where the line is?

I think that's a

little bit too deep for me.

I'm more surface level of,

I just don't like pain and suffering.

So if I see anyone,

I don't care whether

it's a human or an animal,

I don't like anyone in pain at all.

I don't want anyone to suffer at all.

And so how I look at it

is less about consciousness

and sentience, more of,

"Hey, are these animals in pain?

"If so, that's terrible.

"What can I do to try to

at least reduce their pain?"

At least make their lives better.

And most of my life has been

to move animal agribusiness

in a better direction.

As an example,

most chickens in the egg industry

are confined in small cages.

They're cages about the

size of a home microwave.

And imagine six, eight

chickens in your home microwave.

That's the way most chickens are raised

in the United States

and around the world.

So much of what I've done

is to at least move

much of the egg industry

to cage free systems

where it might not be utopia.

They may not be able to go outside.

They might be in a barn

with too many animals,

thousands of other birds,

but at least they're able to run around

within a warehouse and

perch and dust bathe and scratch

and lay eggs in a nesting area.

So rather than living a

maybe zero out of 10 life,

maybe go on to a five or six.

And that seems to be

something that is worth my life.

So when we think about it,

I believe everything

that I am fighting for,

almost everyone agrees with.

And that's a great position to be in.

I believe that I'm just flat mainstream.

I just don't want

animals confined in tiny cages

where they can't move.

I think they should

be able to walk around.

And I think that

actually represents most people.

It's always going on.

Is that right?

If most people were aware,

but there's just not an awareness, right?

When people know they

are on my side for sure,

and you're right,

is that I believe most

people are good people.

I think most people

don't like to think animals

are suffering.

And if they do find

animals suffering or against it.

And I think that's a great place to start

is knowing that most humans

don't want animals to suffer.

So the question is, there's a gap.

Most people don't want animals to suffer.

That's good.

However, raising animals,

especially in the

meat and egg industries,

there's vast amount of suffering.

So there's a huge gap in between.

So how do we bridge that gap

between how animals are raised

and how people feel

animals ought to be raised?

And that's where my efforts have been

in trying to get food companies

to switch to things like cage for eggs

or passing laws to ban these cage

confinement systems.

It's to reflect not my own views,

but the views of most

people in the United States

and frankly around the world too.

We've made some progress

in the last 15, 20 years

since you've been in the industry,

Proposition 12 being a

great example of that.

I know that you understand

the necessity of the baby steps

and you're pushing folks on one end

that are more extreme to be patient

and folks on the other

end who are less aware

to take these smaller steps.

But what does maybe the

ideal end state look like

in some distant future?

Like what is like a

perfect world look like for you,

like from your perspective?

Well, I don't really

think about it that way.

Maybe I'm wrong not to

think about this way.

I just believe in more

short term endeavors.

Bill Clinton once said,

never think about your next election

because the one right in front of you

could be your last one.

And so for me, I'm not

envisioning some utopian world

in 50, 100, 200 years when I'm dead.

What I'm thinking about

is what is going on now

and what can I do to

change it if it's bad?

And Daniel, the calculation that I have

in terms of where I focus

is this, it's threefold.

One, numbers, where are the farm animals

in terms of the number

of animals being raised?

Is it the chicken meat industry?

Is it the pork industry?

Is the dairy industry?

Where are the most number of animals?

That's one column, next column.

Where's the most amount of suffering?

Because some column

might have fewer animals

but they might suffer more.

And the third column,

and this is critical,

is tractability.

Where can we actually make a difference?

There could be areas of suffering that,

my gosh, this is a challenging one.

Maybe we go back to

that one a couple of years

but there's some

things right in front of us

we can advance, let's do that first.

So that's how I view

where to focus my time.

Where the number of

animals, where's the suffering

and what's tractable,

where can we advance?

That's my framework.

Thinking about utopia, at least that's

not in my mind at all.

And it's served me well,

because it's hard enough

for me to advance things

in the short term, let

alone think it's so far ahead

in the future.

So where do you think is the area

of greatest traction right now?

Cages and crates.

So most chickens, as we

talked about in the egg industry

are confined to those tiny cages.

Most mother pigs in the pork industry

are confined in tiny cages as well.

These are cages so narrow

that the mother pigs

can't even turn around.

Pigs are as smart as dogs.

Actually smarter than dogs

in most scientific studies.

And yet they're treated

as if they're machines,

as if they're commodities.

These mother pigs are lined

up in these giant warehouses

like parked cars in these narrow cages

barely larger than their own bodies.

They're there for their

entire four month pregnancy.

They move to a different cage,

also too small for them to turn around

where they give birth

and they nurse their young

for three weeks.

And then the cycle

continues again and again

and again for years on end.

So for years, these mother

pigs can't even turn around.

Now that's barbaric

treatment of any animal

and it's certainly cruel

to do to these mother pigs.

And it happens by the

millions in the United States

and tens of millions around the world.

So what is tractable is

to get rid of these cages

for chickens and these cages for pigs.

And here's how we've done it.

And we can go deeper later.

What we can do is pass

laws to ban these practices.

You mentioned Proposition 12.

So it was a ballot measure

I led in 2018 in California.

And for those listeners who don't live

in ballot measure states,

about half the states do

allow a ballot measure.

In states that allow it, a

government gives you petitions

where you can get

something on the ballot.

So when you vote for

president or senator or governor,

you can put your own

question on there too,

if you get enough signatures.

In California, you need

maybe 500, 600,000 signatures.

So it's very challenging.

But we got something

on the ballot in 2018

that banned the

production and the sale of eggs,

pork and veal from caged animals.

So we got it on the ballot.

And during election

season, I was going up and down

the state debating animal

agribusiness on TV, on radio,

in front of newspaper editorial boards,

debating why it is a good

thing to get rid of these cages.

And hopefully encouraging people

to vote yes for Proposition 12.

We would do rallies, we

would do door knocking

and phone calls.

It was as if I was running for

governor, but thank goodness,

people weren't voting for me,

they were voting for the animals.

And at the end of the

day, on election day,

we won with two thirds of the vote.

That's incredible.

And so what it showed

is that ordinary people

throughout the state,

two thirds of them roughly,

said, absolutely these

animals shouldn't be confined

in tiny cages.

We vote to ban these

practices in our state.

And we've passed similar laws

in about a dozen other

states across the country.

In red states, purple

states and blue states alike,

showing that protecting animals from harm

can be a nonpartisan affair.

We've also, and what I'm doing now

is getting food

corporations to enact policies

to stop using eggs and

pork from these caged animals.

And so if we were

talking 10 years ago, Daniel,

we would be saying, oh

my gosh, it's so terrible.

The percentage of chickens out of cages

is low single digits.

The percentage of

mother pigs out of cages

is low single digits.

Now, both in the egg

industry and the pork industry,

cage free is more

than 40%, more than 40%.

For the egg industry, that

means more than 100 million

egg laying hens

annually are free from cages.

That's a massive

advancement to reduce suffering.

And with the pork industry,

that means millions of pigs

are out of these cages as well.

We have more to go,

roughly 60% of the way to go,

but we've made a lot of progress.

And I feel very confident

we're gonna get to the 100% mark

in the coming years.

So maybe switching gears a

bit, but still connected,

the accountability board is a very

interesting undertaking.

I know that it's an active investor

in more than a hundred companies.

How does it hold these

companies to their commitments,

especially like when

it comes to verifying

the actual numbers of

cage free animals, et cetera?

The accountability board is an investor

in more than a hundred

of the largest companies

around the world.

Many involved in

agriculture, energy, tech.

And when it comes to animal issues,

how we hold these

companies accountable is this,

first, we reach out to

the company as investors

and we engage with executives

related to the treatment of animals.

And again, we work on other issues too,

but we're gonna focus

for this conversation

on animal issues.

And we ask them as shareholders,

"Hey, where are you at on the

commitments that you've made?

"Are you falling through or

have you not taken steps?"

So as investors, we can have

these types of conversations.

For many of these companies,

when things are not moving in a direction

that we feel is appropriate,

we file what's called

shareholder proposals.

Now in the United States,

Canada and other countries,

if you're an investor with

a certain amount of money

in a company, you can file a proposal

that goes on what's called the proxy.

Every investor gets a proxy in the mail,

you can vote on things as an investor,

who's on the board, executive pay.

You also see things like revenue

and other data from the company.

Well, we put something on there too.

And it's a proposal that

shareholders can vote on.

And what happens is that we file with the

company in the fall.

That's how you do it.

You send the proposal

to the company saying,

hi, company, usually it's

the general counsel's office,

general counsel, this is our proposal

that it would be put on the proxy

to be voted on in the spring.

Let us know if you'd like to talk.

So between the fall and

the spring of the next year,

that's the negotiating time when

companies by and large

come to us and say, hey, we got your

proposal, let's talk.

Maybe we can find

some middle ground here.

And that's when we have these discussions

with executives at these companies.

And we have been able to have many

of the largest advancements,

the most impactful

advancements for farm animals

in history through these discussions.

So as an example,

McDonald's switched all of their eggs

to cage free in the United States

and kind of two years faster,

two years faster than the

originally even planned.

And they use 2 billion eggs a year.

That's incredible. 2 billion eggs a year.

Talk about impact.

Imagine how many

individuals we would have to persuade

to stop buying eggs from

chickens confining cages

compared to persuading

one company like McDonald's

to switch to cage for eggs.

That's the efficiency

of working with companies

to make type of large scale change that

we're looking to do.

So McDonald's is one example,

but we've worked with and gotten

virtually every fast food chain,

whether it's Burger King

or Arby's or Taco Bell,

virtually every family,

breakfast chain like Cracker Barrel

or Denny's or IHOP,

consumer packaged good companies

like Kraft Heinz,

Unilever, food service companies

like Aramark, Sadexo and

many grocery stores as well

to switch all of their eggs to cage free

or at least create

benchmarks that they are hitting

on their path to get to 100% cage free.

So that's how we get these advancements.

I think it's as effective as

it comes to creating change.

It's also a way to create change

in the most

professional high level manner

that at least I'm aware of.

And I'm proud about the

success we've had so far.

How much of a stake do you have to take

in order to be able to

submit such proposals?

By US law, you need more

than $25,000 in a company

to have at least for one year.

And then that amount is

reduced subsequent years.

So you can do those

proposals, anything above that amount.

You can own $5 billion in our

company or a million dollars

or just above the 25,000.

But you have to have at

least the $25,000 in a company

for the first year.

Is there like a point

of diminishing returns

after that first 25K?

Or in theory, you

could just have 2.5 million

for those hundred companies

and be able to accomplish

what you need to accomplish.

For shareholder

proposals to be successful,

you have to write in a way

that doesn't just appeal to you.

Even if you have a million dollars, a

hundred million dollars,

even a billion dollars,

you have to do it in a way

that actually would appeal

to the majority of

ownership of the company

in order for the proposal

to have any strength to it.

So I would say that your right

is that there are diminishing returns.

We always craft every proposal as if

shareholders have no,

I'm not saying this is

true, but we write it in a way

as if they have no ethics related to the

treatment of animals,

they just care about the

profits of the company.

And we want to make sure that we hit

an important social issue.

Also in a way where investors

like, this makes sense to me.

Whether the issue itself

resonates with them or not,

they still feel, you know what?

I think the company should do this.

I've noticed that reading

about the different kinds

of work that you do,

you're always trying to convince

capitalists where their

capitalist incentive lies.

I think that's a very interesting take.

It's one of the things

I find most interesting

about your work.

Have you ever found it difficult to

convince an investor

where they could

actually be making more money,

but they had a fundamental

difference in ethical view?

I have never found an investor

have a different ethical view

related to any of the issues

we're pushing forward.

The areas where investors often ask is,

"Hey, I might agree

with you on this issue,

"on a personal note, but

tell me I have to go back

"to our team to say, how will this help

the bottom line too?"

And I get that.

And fortunately, there's

nothing that we advocate

that we encourage companies to do

that will harm shareholders.

In fact, it's the opposite.

As an example, when

we work with companies

to switch to cage-free eggs,

to stop using eggs from cage chickens,

of course that means

better treatment of the animals.

That's obvious.

However, it also means

less food safety risk.

It also means being ahead of regulation

with companies typically like to do.

It means a higher quality of products.

It also means higher

trust among consumers.

So those are all true arguments

about shifting to

cage-free eggs as an example.

In addition to the basic argument

that these animals

shouldn't have been treated

in this cruel and inhumane way either.

So holistically, the issues we push,

one of the reasons why we're successful

is because they are

embraced by a whole host of people

no matter where they're coming from

and no matter where the

investment community views

this particular social issue.

You mentioned food safety risk.

Is that primarily as it concerns

antibiotics and pandemics?

It has less to do with antibiotics.

Antibiotics aren't

typically used in the egg industry.

It typically has to do

with the amount of stress

these chickens are forced to endure

when they're confined in small cages.

So picture eight

chickens confined in a cage size

or home microwave, they

can't move even an inch

without bumping into another

bird within that small cage.

They can't even extend their wings,

meaning that they're

constantly frustrated

and filled with

suffering throughout their life.

They never even stand

on solid ground ever.

They're forced to eat, sleep, defecate,

and lay eggs in the

same small spot every day

their whole life.

And because of that, stressed out birds,

who are having a real tough life

are more likely to get sick

and spread things like salmonella.

And that's why organizations like the

Center for Food Safety

advocate for the egg industry

to switch to cage free eggs.

Same thing related to food quality,

even high-end restaurants,

whose chefs may not have much concern

for the treatment of chickens,

use products from

places that are cage free

or free range where birds even go outside

because they feel that

the quality of the products

are certainly better

than products from animals

who were barely able to

move an inch their entire life.

I believe that I read a few years back

that cortisol from

stress and the hormones

that are injected into

the different animals

that we're eating,

these cortisol and

hormones are often passed

on to us humans and also affecting

how the onset of puberty looks like,

sometimes causing it to happen earlier.

Is this true?

I'm not sure about the science on that.

What I can tell you is

that certainly people,

human beings are

approaching puberty sooner

than in past generations.

I know a lot of folks claim

it's because of milk consumption

and the type of hormones and other things

that are put into dairy cows

to push them to produce more milk.

What I will also add is that

how animals are raised today

is so far from natural

that it's no wonder why

it's causing a lot of

serious health implications

to consumers.

So if you think about

chickens who were raised

pre-World War II, almost all the chickens

were running around outside

they typically had a good

life until the last minutes.

They're out there,

scratching on the ground,

looking for seeds, eating bugs

and they were strong and

they were able to actually walk.

These days is far different.

Chickens in a mean

history are packed together

in these warehouses where

they can barely move an inch.

They're so packed

together by the end of their life

and they can barely walk

because they're so obese.

And as mentioned before,

they're killed a

little past 40 days of age.

So all chicken meat in the United States

comes from baby chickens.

And that's because

they've been selectively bred

to grow so fast.

Talk about eating products that are

completely unnatural.

With eggs, buying eggs

from chickens confining cages,

what an unnatural way to raise an animal.

Confining an animal in a cage

where they can't even extend their limbs

or a pig unable to turn around.

The unnaturalness of

animal products these days

is certainly an area of concern

and the

over-consumption of these products

has led to an increase of heart disease,

of cancer, diabetes and other ailments

when these are the type of health issues

that were not prominent, you

know, 50, 100, 200 years ago.

So certainly how we're raising animals

has had a detrimental

effect on consumers for sure.

How much better off are the chickens

that are laying the

cage-free eggs for McDonald's?

I mean, I'm sure that

McDonald's isn't, you know,

taking them back to the good old days

from how we raised

animals hundreds of years ago.

I'm sure it's some kind of baby step.

What does it actually

look like in practice?

You're right, it's not utopia.

We're not picturing, you know,

you Daniel having 12

chickens in your backyard

and every morning you give

the chickens feed by hand

and you travel them in at

night, that's not the case.

What is the case is

that they are out of cages,

they are able to run

around within a warehouse,

unable to go outside, that's not ideal.

There's still thousands of other birds

that's still too many

but they can engage in

basic behavioral needs.

And if you compare being

confined in a tiny cage

where you can't move to

being raised within a warehouse,

we're at least able to run around

and you can perch and

engage in activities

with the other chickens

because chickens are social creatures

so they like to hang out with each other.

If you're able to lay eggs

in a nest if you're a chicken,

these are all serious

advancements for these chickens.

Now, you and I might

not know what it's like

to have the need to lay an egg in a nest.

(laughs) We never will.

But I can tell you it

matters a lot to chickens.

It really does.

And in these cages they

literally never can do it.

They have to lay eggs

confined with the other chickens

in those cages.

But in all the cage free barns

that are producing eggs

for McDonald's and cage free

for the rest of the United States,

they do have nest

boxes where chickens go in

and lay their eggs.

And that is a massive step forward

for the treatment of these chickens.

And that's also goes to

show how bad things were

when we have to celebrate the idea

that chickens are laying eggs in a nest.

That should be baseline bottom standard.

Yet we had to fight and crawl

to get to that baseline bottom standard

because of how badly

things have been going

for decades on end

within the egg industry

in terms of the treatment of chickens.

Do you think it's harder to hold

companies accountable

for their existing commitments

or to get companies to

make new commitments?

It's equally challenging.

Yeah.

Equally challenging.

Some companies actually want to do good.

And some companies as an example,

companies like Unilever,

which is one of the

largest consumer package

good companies on earth.

This is a company that has

been a leader to try to move

the cosmetic industry

away from animal testing,

has been a leader in

switching to cage free eggs,

has been a leader of advancing more

plant-based offerings

for consumers.

And that's a thriving

company, good for them

for showing how capitalism

can do very good for the world.

That is the minority.

Most companies do have to

be pushed to move forward.

And what I have found is

that I believe most people

who work at companies are good people.

I believe at home,

they're probably a good husband

or wife or a good father or mother.

They probably treat their dog or cat

really well at home.

They might even donate

to their local shelter

at the same time.

Once they enter the

building of their headquarters,

I have found that

companies instinctively try

to race to the bottom

unless otherwise pushed.

And the problem that

these companies have is

when they race to the bottom,

it's actually not even

good for the company.

They think it is because maybe

offhandedly they think,

hey, why don't we just get

whatever the cheapest thing

is available, that's

best for the company.

That's best for saving

money, it's best for profits.

The problem is, is that beyond the

ethical implications

of buying products

like eggs from chickens,

confining cages or pork

from pigs combining cages,

beyond the fact these

animals are suffering

to such an extreme extent,

it's actually bad for their business.

And a lot of times it

takes a little bit of nudging

for these companies to realize that.

And part of the reasons

why we have been successful

getting these companies

to switch to cage frags

as an example, is because

they did come to the realization

it is better for them that they did it.

And that is good.

My hope is that they come to realization

on other issues too.

That rather than keep

fighting for a status quo

of race to the bottom, they

more quickly come to the belief

that, wait a second,

maybe this isn't so good

for the long-term interest of

shareholders or a company

for us to keep racing to the bottom here.

And there are so many

companies where their suppliers

have been exposed for animal cruelty

and food safety concerns

and other severe issues.

And I know at those moments, those

companies were thinking,

gosh, what were we doing?

Why were we buying those products?

That didn't make any sense.

And those companies in most cases

have made changes since then.

So hope springs eternal.

I certainly hope companies

keep moving in a better direction

but at the same time, we're

there to keep pushing them

to do it.

Are there times when

animal welfare is at odds

with investor financial gain

with the exception of

future risk profiles?

Not the issues that we push.

We don't push issues that

are at odds with shareholders.

And maybe one day there

will be some issues out there

that there's some conflict,

but certainly not the

issues that we push.

As an example, McDonald's,

to go back to the company

that switched all

their eggs to cage free,

they weren't moving the way they should

to stop using pork from operations

where mother pigs are confining cages.

And that led to a major PR scandal

where my team worked with

someone named Carl Icahn

who is probably the most famous,

what is called an

activist investor in US history

to take on McDonald's

and nominate two people

for the board of directors

because we felt as if the

board was not doing their job

to follow through on commitments

that were very important to

shareholders and customers.

And that led to more media attention

related to treatment of

farm animals in history

and a massive scandal for McDonald's

where McDonald's had to

spend tens of millions of dollars

to fight off this board battle.

And there's no way that

was good for McDonald's.

And later on, the company has since moved

in a better direction

when it came to animals.

And so I right now

can't think of an issue

where it is better for

companies and shareholders

that animals are treated horribly.

Maybe that will come, but so far,

that's not anything that we're pushing.

So we looked at the

perspective of like the work

that you're doing at

the accountability board,

maybe switching gears to

hear about how you guys

made products that people

want and like cultivated meat,

the work that's been done there.

We'd love to hear how that's been going.

I know the company

has grown pretty large.

It's, I believe had a billion dollar

valuation at one point.

How has that journey

been and where is it headed?

I founded EatJust with

my long time best friend.

His name is also Josh.

We grew up together.

I wanted to be a baseball

player as your listeners now know.

Josh, other Josh wanted

to be a football player.

So we grew up trying to

be professional athletes.

Well, neither of us got there,

but we became dear friends along the way.

And it also helped

probably push our work ethics

and our tenacity that then

translated to taking a leap

to try to do something that

more times than not fails.

And that's the start of company.

And so the idea was this,

is that I still remember

years ago I met with General Mills

and General Mills was

using eggs from Caged Chickens

and I gave a presentation

about why they should switch

to Caged for Eggs and

everyone in the room agreed.

There are all these executives there.

They couldn't have been friendlier

and more compassionate in their view.

But at the end of the

meeting said, okay, Josh,

I think what we can do is

switch maybe 5% of our eggs

to cage free.

And it just broke my heart

because they felt that they were

constrained by cost.

They're constrained by supply.

To move in a direction they

knew was the right thing to do.

And these were good people saying it.

These were not bad

people, shameful people

who were saying we can

only go 5% of the way.

These are good people

who felt constrained.

And I was thinking, what can

we do to put products out there

that don't come from

chickens confined in cages,

that are plant-based,

that ordinary Americans

and major companies can

choose if they so want to

instead of keeping a status quo

and not feel like they have to pay more,

not feel like they have to lose taste,

not feel like they

have to lose the structure

or the product quality.

And so I approached

other Josh with this idea

of creating a plant-based egg product,

whether it's ingredients to

replace eggs from chickens

or maybe one day

creating an actual scrambled egg

that's plant-based.

He thought it was a good idea.

So we put it together and

launched a company in 2011

and thanks more to him than

me, it's been a huge success.

The Just Egg product, which is a egg,

plant-based egg product

sold in every major gross

in the United States

is in the egg section.

And all you do is pour

the liquid plant-based eggs

in a Frank Pandy scrambled up,

just like you would with

eggs and a scrambled eggs.

They also have a frozen egg

product where you just get,

it's kind of like

someone goes to McDonald's,

there's like an egg patty

with an egg in the mouth.

It's like that, the

frozen plant-based egg patty.

Just put in the toaster, you're done.

Put in a piece of toast,

you eat it, it's delicious.

Also have burritos, sauces and dressings.

And what is wonderful about it

and what is really inspiring to me

is that more than 95% of

people who buy these products

and the sales are going extremely well,

more than 95% of

people, they're not vegan,

they're not vegetarian.

These are ordinary people

that are just trying to eat better.

They're trying to eat more plant-based

maybe because they've

higher cholesterol issues.

They maybe understand the impact

of animal

agribusiness in the environment.

So they're trying to take a

step to eat more plant-based.

Maybe they started to learn

about how animals are treated

and they're trying to

take some moment in a day

to choose compassion versus cruelty.

And if it was a whole

bunch of vegans buying it,

I wouldn't be as pumped

up, but it's certainly not.

And so the sales were

great and pretty soon

there's gonna be a

plant-based chicken that's launched

and that is also phenomenally delicious.

Tastes just like chicken breasts

that I remember when I was a kid

and I couldn't be more thrilled

with what the company is doing

and doing in a way that is big tent.

It's bringing everybody in.

I don't care who they voted for.

I don't care what their diet is.

You're on the team.

Just try the product.

If you like it, keep buying it.

If you try it, you don't like it.

Hey, so be it.

I appreciate you giving it a shot.

How's the texture of this chicken?

I'm telling you that

everyday chicken eaters

would have a problem

knowing that this is plant-based.

In fact, there was a

study about a month ago

with self-identified chicken meat lovers.

That's who they were,

chicken meat lovers.

Not that they liked chicken.

They love chicken.

Loved chicken.

Loved chicken.

Loved, not even past tense, Daniel.

You said loved.

Loved as in current.

Loving now.

Right now.

And they were in a room

and they were given all

these different varieties

of actual chicken from birds

and also the eatjust plant-based chicken.

And it was a blind taste test.

They didn't know what they were trying.

They determined that the

eatjust chicken tastes the best.

And only at the end, they

were like, oh, by the way,

do you know that was plant-based?

And they were shocked.

They couldn't believe it.

So this goes in this theory,

that there is virtually no

one who wants to harm animals.

There's no one who wants

to go out and buy products

and then have a

breakfast, lunch, or dinner

that came from an animal who's abused.

People are good.

And so all we have to do in my mind

is allow people options

so people can eat the way they really are

and how they really are are good people.

And as long as we can give

them stuff that's delicious,

I think we're moving in a good direction.

With the chicken, the

plant-based chicken,

is there a nutritional density difference

when it comes to protein

and diversity of amino acids?

There's just as much

protein as in chicken from birds

and chicken meat from birds.

And there's no cholesterol.

Cholesterol is a huge

issue in the United States

and other parts in the world.

And products that are

entirely plant-based

have zero cholesterol in them.

So we're talking about a

high protein, low calorie,

zero cholesterol product.

And I think it's pretty good too.

I think it's extremely good.

I will say, I know I'm biased.

It's a company that I co-founded.

I get it.

I get it.

At the same time, I just hope people

try plant-based products.

Try eat just products or try others.

That's all good too.

I want all the companies to succeed.

And what I can tell folks is that

there are enough

plant-based products out there

that you're gonna

find something you like.

You might go to the market

and try the grocery store,

like, all right, I'm gonna go home

with six different veggie burgers.

Maybe you like all six.

Maybe you like two of the six.

That's all good.

At the same time, you will

find something that you like.

And as long as we just keep trying

to incorporate it more into our diet,

it's not about perfection.

I'm not perfect.

You're not perfect.

No one's perfect.

As long as we keep trying

to incorporate this stuff

into our diet, we can

really move things along forward.

And I think a lot of

times we just have to give

some of these products a chance.

And just try a whole bunch of them.

Just know that you're

not gonna like some.

But others you are, and maybe eat

that a little bit more often.

We've made a lot of traction

with vegan diet options being available.

Are there, how large would

you say the nutritional gap is?

In terms of nutrient

density, amino acid density,

protein density, et cetera.

Do you think that gap

is completely closed

or almost closed?

Where do you perceive it to be?

Several things.

One is that when we

talk about plant-based food

or vegan food, remember

the healthiest diet likely

is a diet that is

focused on things like beans

and vegetables and fruit.

Most people think if

that's where your focus is,

you're probably eating pretty well.

And so yes, we can talk

about new plant-based burgers

and plant-based chicken

fingers and plant-based eggs

and all those good stuff.

Absolutely, let's talk about it.

At the same time, if

we want to be healthy

and that is the sole focus,

likely it is good to focus

on those whole foods

plant-based products in the market.

If our protein comes

from beans and whole grains,

if our fiber comes from

different types of vegetables,

choose any vegetables you want.

Really at the end of the day,

just eat some vegetables that you like.

As long as we eat more fruit

and we reduce the

amount of animal protein,

you're likely going to be eating a diet

that's pretty healthy.

So let's start with that.

Now onto the plant-based meat products.

You know, there's some

plant-based meat products

that are fried and they're just delicious

and they're not meant to be the

healthiest product on earth.

They're just like,

"Hey, these are

plant-based chicken fingers.

They're darn good. Enjoy them.

Watch a football game with them."

And that's what they're meant to be.

They're not trying to hide anything.

I would say that that's good

if you want to enjoy that wonderful.

Keep in mind that most of the folks

that when we're eating

these animal products,

we're eating animal products

that aren't so healthy for us.

They have a lot of fat, a lot of

cholesterol, often fried.

When chicken often, chicken meat

typically still has antibiotics in it

because the chicken meat industry

just laces the chicken

feed with antibiotics

because the conditions are so terrible.

The antibiotics that

only weigh these chickens

even remain alive.

Think about that,

eating meat from a chicken

who otherwise would have died

if she wasn't laced with all these drugs

to keep them alive in

these horrible conditions

where they're forced to

stand in their own waste

with tens of thousands of other chickens.

Do we want to, is

that what we want to have

to be the centerpiece of what we eat?

So if we want to try plant-based products

that perhaps aren't so,

this aren't as fun as

like a fried chicken patty

or finger or nugget.

Yeah, there's a lot of good,

healthier stuff out there too.

There's veggie burgers that are very low

in fat and high protein.

There's some veggie burgers,

some folks like veggie burgers

that are more like mashed up vegetables

that they have more of a vegetable feel.

Like that's what my dad,

he's mostly plant-based.

He's 86 years old, good for him.

And he loves sweet potato veggie burgers.

My brother loves the veggie burgers

that have like corn and broccoli and kale

and grains kind of mashed in.

So it's just like a

health patty type of thing.

He loves that stuff and he's not

vegetarian or vegan,

but he enjoys that.

So my point is there's

such a variety, Daniel,

to talk about whether a product has

reached a certain point.

There's too much variety

to even answer that question

because there's

products out there to meet

pretty much what anybody

is looking for these days.

We've come a long way

because I don't think 20 years ago

there was such a variety available to us.

That's true.

That is definitely true.

I mean, when I started to try

to reduce my meat consumption

when I was in high school in the 1990s,

my gosh, it was challenging to find,

be obviously as easy to

find vegetables and fruit

and beans and maybe I

should have stuck with that.

I would have maybe had

a healthier childhood.

But there weren't the

plant-based meat products

that are available these days.

You're exactly right.

Just Egg, as we talked about,

is every mainstream grocery store.

You don't need to go

to a natural food store

or a Whole Foods.

Go to any major grocery store.

They'll have the plant-based egg,

Just Egg in the egg section.

By the way, you go to

the frozen meat section,

you're gonna likely see

different types of veggie burgers

these days that are

typically pretty darn good.

And by the way, in the milk section,

you're gonna see more

variety of plant-based milk

that you could possibly dream.

You go to a coffee shop,

there's now a list of five different

plant-based milk sometimes.

There's so much variety these days.

You're exactly right.

Is that now more than ever,

it's easier to start make these steps

forward into our diet.

And I can't stress enough,

it's not about the last step.

It's about the first step.

As long as we just

start taking these steps

and trying some of these products,

I think we can come together and see,

hey, we can start

making tangible advancements

in the near term to reduce the stress

within animal agribusiness

of raising so many animals

for food in such horrible conditions.

The startup roller coaster

is full of very high highs

and very low lows.

What were some of the lows

at Eat Just in the journey?

Well, it's always hard to

raise money for a startup.

And that's in any sector of the economy.

And so I would say that

there were some challenging times

from 2011 till today that it was really

hard to raise money.

And sadly, other

startups had to close shop.

Frankly, I'm not saying

it's even their fault.

It's just that

sometimes an economy shifts

in a certain direction

that is harder to raise money

in given sectors.

And so thank goodness we

got through difficult times

of trying to raise funds to continue.

I can tell you is that the

company's in a very good position

now and is very sturdy and growing

and economically sustainable.

So I would just say

overall, you ask any founder,

most of them would

probably say raising money

was a big stressful component of the

company's existence.

What does your work look like day to day?

What do you spend

most of your time doing?

I know you guys have scaled quite a bit I think your past 200 people,

like what is the highest

leverage use of your time

that you spend every day at Eat Just?

So I devote very little

time in Eat Just these days.

I'm full time at the accountability board

where we're working

with these food companies

on various issues,

including animal welfare.

So each day, typically there are meetings

with these food companies,

with food company executives

and other companies, by

the way, on other issues.

And I think that's a good thing. And these meetings, they're lengthy,

they're sometimes

intense and they're continual.

When you're invested in

well over a hundred companies,

there's a whole lot of

negotiations that go on.

So that happens virtually every day.

There's some type of

meeting or meetings going on.

Simultaneously, I'm also

working on legislation.

And right now, as we're talking Daniel,

there's very bad

legislation that was introduced

in Congress called the Eats Act.

That legislation has been

pushed by the pork industry.

And what it would do is wipe out most

of the farm animal

laws in the United States.

The pork industry

fought to stop Proposition 12

in California, that

ballot measure we talked

about earlier, they lost.

They then sued California

saying it was unconstitutional.

That lawsuit went all the

way up to the Supreme Court.

I devoted a year in my

life and now I have a lot

of gray hairs working on that case.

And we won, we won it to

Supreme Court in a big upset.

Predicting markets

said that we would lose,

but no, the Supreme Court

of the United States ruled

that California had the

right to pass such a law.

So the pork industry was 0 for 2.

And now what they're

trying to do is go to Congress

and have a federal law that

supersedes all the state laws

banning States from having

such type of rules that mandate

that pigs, God forbid, have

to be able to turn around.

That's how messed up the

United States pork industry

by and large is, is that the leadership

of the industry is

devoting so many resources,

tens of millions of dollars,

and their major lobbying power in DC

to try to overturn

laws that simply say pigs

should be able to turn around.

Think about that.

That's how far off this

industry is with societal norms,

with how animals ought to be treated.

So I'm devoting a lot of my time,

lobbying in Congress

and doing other type of

work with coalition members,

including pig farmers who've moved away

from gestation crates to

prevent this legislation

from passing.

What's a gestation crate for

viewers who might not know?

Thank you for asking.

Gestation crates are those cages

where those mother

pigs can't turn around.

So where these mother

pigs can't turn around,

it's during their

pregnancy in these crates

and it's when they're gestating.

So that's why those cages

are called gestation crates.

For three weeks where I mentioned

that they are nursing their young,

that's a different crate

called a farrowing crate.

Again, they still can't turn around.

And when they're done

nursing, they're young,

they're put back in that gestation crate.

It's that cage where

they can't turn around

for that cycle to

continue for years on end.

Did I find the right one here?

Yep.

There you go.

Pretty terrible.

So for those who are watching,

I mean, we're talking about

a facility where, you know,

these pigs are confined in a cage

where the cage is barely

larger than their bodies.

They can't turn around.

They're just lined up as if

they're inanimate objects.

The only thing that

happens in terms of the treatment

of these pigs is that there's

food that is put in the front

and the waste is hosed out

from the back and that's it.

And there's no animal husbandry.

It's just treating these

pigs as if they are machines.

In fact, when gestation crates, those

cages were invented,

pork industry management

booklets told pork producers

to quote, "Treat pigs

as if they are machines."

And so when you see these

animals as if they're machines,

you can understand how

they're treated so poorly.

You know, if I threw my chair away

and just threw the chair in the dumpster,

people are like, "Oh, who cares?

"It's just a chair in a dumpster."

But if you view a pig as if

this pig has the same moral

standard as a chair, then

you can do things to a pig,

like put the pig in a cage

where she can never turn around.

And that's how the pork

industry has taught producers

to treat their pigs.

And that's why

conditions have gone so poorly.

Could you have imagined when

you were a kid or a teenager

that you'd be having so much impact on your own?

I'm not making so much

impact in the world today.

Well, I hope I'm making an impact.

I feel like--

Don't be modest.

(laughs)

You've been doing some

pretty tremendous work.

You're very kind and

I'm grateful to be part

of such a great team doing all this work

that we talked about today.

When I can tell you, when I was a kid,

I certainly was

envisioning me more pitching

than waging a ballot

measure in California

to get chickens out of cages.

So it's definitely

different than I envisioned.

What I can tell you is

that when I was raised by my,

mostly by my dad, the heroes that he

would always talk about

are those who fought to

make the world a better place.

You know, he taught me, and he also

taught in high school

as a teacher about Gandhi.

He taught about the

civil rights movement.

He talked about heroic Jews and Gentiles

who saved folks during the Holocaust.

And so when you're living in a household

where you're

constantly hearing about those

who have fought to make the world better,

it penetrates you that to

want to have similar value,

you want to also try

to make a difference,

at least in your own way.

So I did have such a thought

that I wanted to make some difference.

I don't know whether it

was during my baseball

or probably afterwards,

but I certainly wanted

to try to make the world

a better place.

I think that for a lot of the time,

I just didn't know what to do.

And I know in college, I

still didn't know what to do.

And so my big campaign in college

on baseball road trips

was for the cafeteria

to offer peanut

butter and jelly sandwiches

for players who wanted to choose

to eat a vegetarian

meal on the road trip.

And so that was my

first big win, so to speak.

And so I don't know if

that standard holds today

where I went to school,

but I certainly at the time,

I was really proud of what I did.

But at the end of the

day, at least for me,

I basically feel as if I'm just a tool

to try to make things

better, frankly, until I die.

And then hopefully others carry the torch

and be more effective

and do even better work.

Were there moments along the journey

where you had doubts in the conviction

for what you're working on?

Or has it always been

like very straightforward,

very easy, very

empathy and compassion led,

like no doubt of any kind?

I never had doubts.

I never had doubts

related to the conviction

that I've had related to trying to do

as everything I could to reduce

and hopefully stop the suffering

of as many animals as possible.

To me, it seems so obvious.

We just don't want animals to suffer.

It didn't, there wasn't like,

it's not like a tax policy.

They're like, gosh, you know,

the pros and cons of

this type of tax policy

versus this tax with tax policy,

or some type of, you

know, foreign negotiations

where it's like, oh,

you give and you take.

To me, it's really clear.

If we can stop suffering,

we should stop suffering.

So I've never veered away from that.

What I can tell you is that I've evolved

in what strategies that I've used

to try to make the impact.

Certainly years ago, I

did things at the time

I thought were effective.

Looking back, I'm

thinking, my gosh, Josh,

what the hell were you doing?

And I'm thinking, if you

and I are talking to Daniel

in five years, there are

gonna be things I'm doing now

that I probably would think, oh, come on,

I wish you did better.

So it's more of evolution of

trying to be more effective

than an evolution away from caring

about the treatment of animals.

When you've talked about

a distant utopian future,

you know, among peers, or maybe early on

in your journey, did you

find that it would disconnect

and distance the

audience that you're talking to,

whether it's one-on-one or to a group?

Like, I can tell that

you're really trying

to make it one step at a time.

And I'm sure that helps keep folks

engaged to some extent.

What was your findings

when you were talking

about things that are just too far out?

It's less about other people.

It's more about me.

I'm just not motivated about that.

I just feel like it's almost fanciful

to talk so far into the future.

It's just disconnected

from what's in front of you.

Right.

You know, it's almost like, you know,

if my dog, if I had a

dog and my dog had cancer,

and dog's satellite had

cancer and passed away,

that I want to focus right now,

what do I have to do to

cure my dog of this cancer?

It's immediate.

It's in front of you.

Right in front of me.

I want to do it now.

I don't want to think, gosh,

what would cancer treatment look like

in five, 10, 30 years from now?

You know, what type of dog

would I work 30 years from now?

What type of life would I want?

It's right in front of

my face, at least for me.

And I'm not saying this for everybody.

And other people can

look more in the future.

And if that works to them, fantastic.

It just does not resonate with me

to look so far in the future.

I need to look at now.

And I got to tell you,

and maybe that is part of,

coming from the athletic

background that I previously had,

is that when you are playing a sport

and you think in the future you lose,

you got to focus on the moment.

And I know that I was a pitcher,

so I had to focus on every pitch.

And if you're a hitter,

you're focusing on every

pitch that comes your way.

I don't care if

you're a basketball player

focusing on your shot, a football player

focusing on the ball

that you're trying to catch

for a touchdown, you got to

focus on the moment in time.

And if you veer away from that,

that's when we start failing.

So it does not resonate with me

to talk so far in the future.

So it's not some

strategy for external purposes.

It's more about just who I am.

Is a fully plant-based society

still too far in the future

to think about as realistic?

I don't know whether

that would happen or not.

I'll leave that to others to decide.

What I can tell you is

that it is certainly better

for the world if we eat

more plant-based meals.

It is better to reduce

greenhouse gas emissions,

it's better for health, it's

obviously better for animals,

that fewer animals are raised inside

these horrible factory farms

and killed in these slaughterhouses.

So it is certainly a

better thing if we start moving

in a plant-based direction.

And when I'm talking

about starting moving,

I'm talking about studies that show

that if someone just bought local,

and that's all they

did is buy local food,

but they kept eating the

same amount of animal products,

but they all bought local,

compared to someone

who did Meatless Monday,

the person who did Meatless Monday

and then just kept

everything else the same,

reduced greenhouse gas emissions more

in terms of their impact

than someone who bought local

every single meal that they had.

If we believe in the

science of climate change,

there's no way we can

meet any of the goals

to hit some Paris Climate

Accord or even anything close

if we continue to eat

as much meat as we do.

And listen, there's

gonna be a big variety of us,

hopefully, to move in a better direction.

There's gonna be some

folks that go vegan, great.

There's gonna be some folks that go

vegetarian, wonderful.

There's gonna be some

folks that do Meatless Monday

or vegan before 6 p.m. or

any iteration of the above.

As long as we can't

move in that direction,

that's what I'm

looking at more short-term

versus a plant-based

future 50 years from now,

100 years and 150 years.

It's hard to look that far out.

I'm not smart enough to do it, Daniel.

Maybe others are, but I'm not.

I think if anyone's got a

chance, it's probably you, Josh.

I don't think you give

yourself enough credit

in terms of seeing

what's around the corner.

You saw a lot of what

was around the corner,

even 15 years back.

So, would love to pick

your brain more on that

perhaps another time as things develop.

I know you've been using capitalism

as a tool to create change.

Do you think there are

going to be limitations

to how far you can create

interventions with capitalism?

And if so, what other

kinds of tools can be used

to create more meaningful interventions?

The two interventions that I have found

to be most effective are

capitalism and basic democracy.

Capitalism through these

corporations making changes

and democracy being

able to pass these laws.

Sure.

So, what I would say is

that there's nothing inherent

about capitalism that

should make things worse

for animals or the world in general.

There are a lot of great

companies that are excelling,

doing really good work in the world.

And there are a lot of

companies that are failing

that have been doing

bad work in the world.

And I would feel

differently if ordinary people

just did not care at all,

at least about the treatment of animals.

Sure. For a topic today, then

I'd be more concerned.

But I cannot imagine a world that it

doesn't help companies

excel in a capitalistic society

if they do better for animals.

I can't imagine any

company losing market share

because customers learn

they're doing better for animals.

That's why I feel really

confident that capitalism

has been and continue to be used

to improve the treatment of animals.

Simultaneously, what I also believe

is that it is important to pass laws

because there's some things in societies

that should be banned.

I think we can all agree that there

shouldn't be dog fighting.

Having dog fighting is a

free market opportunity.

I think it is something that

we probably don't agree with.

We probably don't agree that,

hey, let a free market rule

whether people can

light their pets on fire

or have cock riding

fighting rings in their backyard.

I think we all agree, you know what?

There should be some rules here,

some basic societal ground rules

that ensure some level

of a compassionate society

that reflect social norms

when it comes to treatment of animals.

I happen to believe that

the way we treat farm animals,

it is outside of those norms.

And when brought to

ordinary people's attentions,

they agree with me too.

We talked about California's Prop 12,

passing the law that

bans the sale of eggs, pork,

and veal from caged animals.

The first state where

voters banned the confinement

of those pigs in gestation crates of

small cages was Florida.

The second state was Arizona.

We're talking about red states

where Republican voters were saying,

no, this should not be allowed.

I don't care if someone makes a profit

off of selling meat from

animals who are abused.

This has just crossed a boundary.

And so, yes, red states have shown

that the consumers and

voters agree with this sentiment.

Blue states have shown it.

The swing states have shown

it banning these practices.

So, yes, I would say the

combination of using capitalism

and having some type of legal framework

is the formula to keep

moving things forward

for the treatment of animals.

Wouldn't you say capitalism is the reason

that this race to the bottom,

through the

commoditization of these products

and these antibiotics,

these gestation crates,

these horrible living conditions,

the maximization of yields through having

the chickens grow up

normally fast and large.

Aren't these driven

by fundamentally trying

to reduce cost per unit, per kilo?

Well, if that was the

case, then when in capitalist,

I'm just saying,

communist and socialist countries

in this theory treat

animals better, it doesn't happen.

They use battery cages too.

They use, I'm not trying

to go all the way to, yeah.

I think there's a lot of problems

with communism and socialism on a show.

I'm not trying to argue

for a different system.

I'm just trying to understand like how,

what are the limitations

of capitalist incentives?

I know that you've, go ahead.

Yeah, I think that here's the limitation

is that mistakes get

made because we're humans.

I make mistakes, you make

mistakes, we all make mistakes.

And yes, companies try to cut costs.

That is typical in a

capitalist society in any industry.

However, oftentimes

that leads to mistakes.

That oftentimes leads to less safe cars,

that leads to food safety concerns.

Even relate, forget about

animal products for a second.

Are we feeling, are we in a good position

if a food company cuts

costs by reducing what they do

to help ensure that their food is safe?

We're not cool with that.

You know, what about,

are we good with airliners

cutting costs by

reducing safety measures?

Of course not.

So we know that in a capitalist society,

industries try to cut

costs, they do, I get it.

Hopefully, corrective measures are made.

When the things that

they try to cut costs for

were actually not

beneficial for the company.

So you are right is that

the advent of these cages

for animals was not

because they wanted animals

to be tortured.

These aren't, they weren't

invented by some monsters

who just loved animal suffering.

Their belief was that,

hey, let's cut costs.

And you know, maybe

animals don't matter that much.

At least that's what the

industry is telling us now.

They don't matter much.

I think you're right.

What I can say is that corrective

measures had been made.

Now we're working on it.

But part of the reason why we're,

we've gone from single

digits cage free to mid forties

for both cage free

eggs and crate free pork

is because corrective

measures are being made now.

And I promise you that McDonald's

is a very much capitalistic company.

And that's just one.

So same with their competitors

and the other food sector giants

that have shifted in a better direction.

They're still capitalists.

They are making a capitalistic decision

that it is better for the

company and shareholders

to improve the

practices that are going on

in their supply chain.

So that's all part of capitalism.

Fair points.

Fair points.

I'm curious with the

accountability board,

how is the scaling of the impact going

only a few years in?

And what does the trajectory look like?

I think that's like a,

I think it's a

fascinating way to make an impact

by taking stakes in these companies.

How, what's like,

what's the future look like?

And how global is it going to be?

Because it seems more

promising than legislation.

I think you're spot on is that it's,

it's very hard to pass laws.

And there are just so

many companies out there

that are global.

That if one company, maybe

based in the United States,

has a global commitment

to take action for animals,

all of a sudden you're

getting animals out of Cajids

in Eastern Europe and in Asia

and in Africa and South America.

Because a company, maybe

head court in the United States

will make a global

policy to go cage free.

So maybe we're not going

to pass a cage free law

in China anytime soon.

But if these fast food

chains tell their suppliers,

listen, we're switching cage frags.

Guess what?

Those chickens get out of

cages in China without a law.

So you're exactly right is

that it is more efficient,

at least right now,

to work on these

policies, the United States,

and globally with corporations than it is

to pass these laws.

I still think the laws

should be worked on in past.

It just has to be

more efficient right now

to work with these companies.

So what I would say is

that what we're trying to do

is short term, trying to get these

animals out of cages

and crates United States.

The next step we're

taking is that these companies

typically have global policies,

but they haven't moved globally.

It's hard enough sometimes

for them to even take steps

to follow through with the

commitment of the United States.

When they pledge to do

actions on a global scale,

they push back even

harder about following through

what they promised to begin with.

So much of our effort

will be focused on ensuring

that their global

commitments are fulfilled.

I mean, if you look at

all the top food companies

in the United States,

the fast food chains,

the consumer passion

companies, all of them,

they all have global footprints.

So a big focus is to make sure that

they're fall through

outside the US and we can get animals

by the tens of millions and overall

hundreds of millions

out of cages in places around the world

where we're not gonna pass laws,

certainly not in the near term.

How does the auditing of

these cage-free commitments

and other animal

treatment commitments look like?

And what are like the

metrics that you really look at

and like look at compliance?

Yeah, that's an important question.

We do not accept

agreements where a company

would just simply put

something on a website and say,

okay, great, we're good.

We just put it on a website.

Green washer.

Green washing, absolutely.

And the only thing they

can do is just delete it

from their website next week.

There's no law that says

they can't delete something

from a website.

And that's what we've seen companies do,

is have policies that they have had

on their website for years.

And then when we ask

them, how's that going?

They look, oh, wait a second, it's gone.

Exactly right, you

nailed it, you nailed it.

So what we push the

company to do is for them to put

in places where they

can't just delete it.

We're talking about

reports to shareholders.

We're talking about updates

from the board of directors.

We're talking about other

places where it's not a quick,

hey, delete a sentence from a website.

It's more serious in terms

of trying to revert backwards.

A lot of these companies

we even have contracts with

in terms of following

through with these policies.

And so it was a mistake I made before.

We talked about looking back and some,

I'd said about mistakes I made.

I just thought companies could be trusted

that they put something on their website.

I'm like, okay, great, it's done.

Look at how valuable I was.

What an idiot I was.

I know, I wish you and I

talked all those years ago,

you'd be like, Josh, come

on, don't be so comfortable.

Josh, don't fall for it, come on.

Don't fall through it.

That's what you're telling

me, don't fall through it.

Why I did, I fell through it.

So that's what

happened all those years ago.

Most of these food companies had my name

in their pressure

leases or a colleague's name

in their pressure leases when they made

their original commitments.

And then years later when

following up, where are you at?

They've done nothing.

And then a lot of time they get deleted.

So now I'm working with

them like, hey, company,

here's the link of your press release.

Here's my name in it, where I was in it.

This is so long ago.

I trusted you to do this.

You all didn't fall through.

And so we're gonna move forward via

shareholder channels

to hold you accountable.

But our preference of course

is to find some ground here

where you actually fall through

with the very commitment

that you promised you do.

So how does that look

like in the nuts and bolts?

To get a little one level deeper,

like how do you measure

compliance and audit compliance?

Do you have like your,

do you audit from someone

internally that you have

or an external company?

Do you require some kind of proof?

Like what does it look

like in terms of actually

like ensuring that the outcome,

the real world outcome is happening?

Absolutely.

What happens is that we

only accepted these companies

put their new

commitment or their new promise,

whatever it may be,

somewhere where it matters much more to

reflection of shareholders.

So there's a serious nature behind it.

Like their ESG report,

sustainability report,

annual report, some type of report

that goes to shareholders.

Then in terms of keeping the progress,

part of the agreement

is they have to provide

annual updates in that report.

And so these are

reports where they legally

can't lie to shareholders.

Websites, companies can put stuff on

websites all the time.

Best tasting burger in the world.

You know, come on, it's fine.

But in reports to

shareholders, no, no, no,

you can't just lie to shareholders.

You get in serious

trouble for your company.

So for these companies, it's,

you have to put your

commitments in some type of report

that goes to these

shareholders and annual updates.

So it sounded like, oh

great, you did that, wonderful.

So we're never going to check back in.

No, no, no, annually you're

going to update shareholders

in those reports where you're at.

So that's how we ensure that companies

are actually moving forward.

And in the United States and

in many parts of the world,

products like eggs are come from third

party audited systems.

So in the US, virtually

every single cage frag

comes from an operation that has been

third party audited.

And so there's also

that ground auditing too.

So those are the

reasons why I feel comfortable

once a company makes a commitment

and provides annual

updates in these reports

to shareholders that

movement is happening.

That's why.

Before that, a static

statement on a website

that says we're going to

be cage free in 10 years.

That never changes one second ever.

And then it turns out they've done

nothing to follow through.

That's the type of stuff I look out for.

So what is the scaling of the

accountability board

look like the next five years or so?

So we have a good team.

It's not very large

compared to other organizations

that might have 300, 400 people.

At the same time, we

work with serious law firms

in many countries around the world.

We have experts on

our team that understand

the most effective and legally proper way

to write shareholder proposals

that are expert

negotiators with companies

that understand how

to do work with the SEC

that oversees shareholder advocacy.

That's the Securities

and Exchange Commission.

And so fortunately this work doesn't

require too many people.

We don't have really a

bureaucracy here, which I enjoy.

That's great.

Yeah, very much. Bureaucracy is terrible.

There you go.

You know it, you know it.

At the same time, we're

making quite an impact

with the type of force that we have.

On your deathbed, what

would you like to see

have that you've accomplished?

You know, I don't have,

you're starting to ask longer term goal.

And I say longer term

because I hope it's a while.

So we'll see. Yeah, me too.

We'll see how it goes.

Yeah, we'll see how it goes.

I just want people to know I fought.

I fought.

And we'll see what happens from there.

Maybe like a specific more ambitious goal

will help you push you further

than you otherwise would have.

I mean, personally I don't believe in

participation trophies.

Is there a finish line you have in mind?

I don't, trust me.

Amen, amen to that.

I would say short term, but this is,

hopefully I continue to live after this.

I do want to get all

these animals out of cages.

And we're talking about 320

million in the United States.

We're talking about

several billion around the world.

So we're talking about

massive number of animals.

And if that's the only

thing that I do on earth

and maybe the company that I co-founded

is pretty successful at

helping people more humanely

than it'll be a good life.

Yeah, that sounds pretty impactful to me.

What advice would you

give aspiring entrepreneurs

looking to attack social issues?

Maybe not in the domain

of like animal treatment,

but in other domains.

I imagine it's much

harder to raise capital.

I imagine like the infrastructure

isn't quite there for it.

Like there are some things

that perhaps don't always align

with like market incentives.

How, what suggestions

or advice would you give

an entrepreneur starting out today?

Yes, one of the

reasons why I think Each Us

has been successful is

that it created a product

that it just made sense that it existed

that just did not exist yet.

And it makes total sense,

even egg producers work

with the company by the way,

that there at least should be a

plant-based offering

in the egg section,

just like there is in the milk section

and the meat section.

And just knowing that

is so much of the battle

is knowing that it just makes sense.

You know, there's so much

that goes into startup work

that is so challenging.

And I give so much credit to

anybody who does a startup.

What I think is this

the first place to start

is as soon as you say the idea,

hopefully most people

think, you know what,

wait, that doesn't exist.

Huh, that should exist.

That's a good place to start.

And outside the animal world,

I don't know all

that, what that would be.

What I can tell you

is that having options

for major egg product users for their

cookies and baked goods

for them to have an option to use

plant-based ingredients,

that just makes sense as an option.

And the other products,

having a plant-based chicken

that actually tastes just like chicken,

that just makes sense to do.

Whether it's to be successful, who knows?

Who knows?

But at least it makes a lot of sense.

So that's the first place I would start.

Next place I would start

is there's literally nothing

that I have done, Daniel, that I

accomplished by myself.

Literally zero.

And part of founding a

company or taking a leap

and doing something pretty special

is finding someone or

a team to do it with

that you're ready to go into battle with.

I can tell you the things

I'm most proud of in life.

It's California Prop 12, ballot measure.

I also spent about a year

of my life on or eat just,

or the work of the

accountability board that I'm doing now,

zero of that I could have done by myself.

I were so lucky to have

dear friends work together

with me and I work with

them to accomplish this.

So if you're looking to found something,

find a couple of folks

that want to go in with you

because you don't want

to do this by yourself.

Try not to be successful,

it's gonna be really lonely.

Go in with someone else too.

I imagine the kind of

individuals that have joined you

in the journey are much

more missionary minded

rather than mercenary minded.

Is that right?

Well, you can be

missionary and mercenary.

You can be missionary as in, hey, I'll do

this for a solid year.

I'm going all out because I

believe in this after a year.

I'm gonna move on to something else.

I guess that makes sense.

You can pursue

something you deeply believe in

and still be exchanged fairly.

I guess that's not, the

premise is not quite right.

I get your point though.

I just, I got your point.

I got your point.

What you're right is

that the success that,

at least it leads to

what I've been part of.

Almost all of it had to do with people

who believed in the mission

of what we were trying to do.

And you're right, it wasn't like,

we really succeeded because

this outside consulting firm

did XYZ that never gets the job done.

It's good to have outside

firms help on the periphery.

Absolutely.

I'm so grateful for so many that have.

But you're exactly

right is that, in my view,

bringing on just true

believers who are missionaries

on whatever you're fighting for.

Believer, if you want to

start a new type of car business

or new AI company,

whatever the mission is,

I just want people who are

obsessed and willing to fight

and have courage and are good people.

That's a type of folks certainly

that I would love to

work side by side with.

How do you invest in yourself

to be a better version

of yourself every day?

Like to be able to create more impact?

You have to be like

refilling your own cup,

both like energy wise and knowledge wise.

How does that look like for you?

I could do a better job.

Certainly what I'm

trying to do to be better,

and I have not gotten there yet,

and I hope to be

better, is that I read a lot.

And I read books that

hopefully inspire me to do better.

And I love reading books

about history and leaders

and take things away from those people

and those historic

situations that can translate

to my life or what I'm doing.

So reading is a major component for me of

trying to be better.

Also, in terms of

refilling the cup, so to speak,

I love football.

And you know what?

I gotta tell you, it's

just enjoyable to sit down,

watching my Chicago

Bears who typically lose,

but just like not checking an email,

just like not thinking of something out,

in the serious world,

but just lose myself

for like three hours a

week during football season

and just enjoy the game.

You know, that really

helps, even if they lose,

which they most likely do,

almost percentage-wise most of the time,

it really helps me just

kind of come back to the work,

mindfully refreshed.

What books are you reading right now?

I just finished a book

about John F. Kennedy,

and so much of the book was about the

Cuban Missile Crisis.

And what helps me in

reading these books sometimes

is putting things in context.

When I'm thinking I'm having a bad day,

imagine trying to be

president during a crisis

that could literally end the world.

And there were times

during the Cuban Missile Crisis

where folks who may not know,

but there were nuclear

missiles in Cuba in the 1960s,

and President Kennedy

and Premier Khrushchev

had to negotiate some type of end to it.

And if they didn't, that

would have been it, game over.

And there were times during the crisis

where both sides thought it was over,

the world was going to end.

And there's even stories

about a lot of the negotiators

looking at the sun going down one night

and thinking that's the last time

if anyone's gonna see the sun go down.

Now, here's my point.

That puts a lot of perspective into,

what was me, I didn't get a response

as quickly as I wish I did in an email.

And that helped center me and put things

in a lot of perspective.

And that grounds me

in a place that I hope,

I'm pretty consistent

in my emotional stability

to handle the ups and

downs of when things occur.

So that's how I try to learn.

And that's a book I just finished.

That sounds like a great book.

I may read it.

I'm personally a history buff myself.

I love to read history books.

What are some books

that you would recommend

to young aspiring entrepreneurs

that have been helpful for you?

They don't have to be like in the startup

or self-help domain.

They could be history,

like leaders that you look to

as exemplars, anything.

My favorite book of all time,

it's "Team of Rivals"

about Abraham Lincoln.

And this book is good for

anyone who's an entrepreneur

or someone who's involved

in government or anybody.

And the reason being is that,

this is just my opinion,

Dan, I'll take it for what it's worth,

but I feel like

Abraham Lincoln handled a lot

of tough situations better

than most of us would have.

And a lot of it is lessons that could

translate to anybody.

I'll give you a couple of

things of what he did so well.

Whenever things were

going well in the Civil War,

a battle was won or

something positive occurred,

he would never take the credit.

He would always bring

the credit elsewhere.

Hey, no, no, no,

don't come to me on that.

That was because the general so-and-so,

go to general

so-and-so, say good job to him,

always raised other people up.

And one, he did that because I believe

he was likely a very good guy,

but also smartly,

it helped continue to propel good actions

because people were lauded for success.

And just imagine,

I think we've probably all been there

where we did something good in life,

and then maybe someone above us,

we kind of felt like,

wow, they took a lot of credit for that.

Huh, okay.

We maybe have been there in life

versus we've also been there in life

when there was someone who was maybe

the head of an organization,

pointed us out, maybe it

was at an all staff meeting,

maybe it was with

some investors or donors,

saying, oh hey, Josh,

Daniel, come over here.

Hey, investors, the

reason why this sector

of our company is doing so well,

it's because of that

Daniel guy right there.

It's him, it's not me.

He's a total star here, so grab a farm.

All right, Daniel, go back to work.

I just wanted them to meet you.

Like that's the type of stuff

that people don't forget.

And I know that when

people did that for me,

I never forgot that, never forgot that,

including growing up playing baseball,

where someone was

maybe the star of the game,

but in interviews

would say, oh, by the way,

you should talk to Josh.

He did XYZ.

I was always touched by that.

And that's what Lincoln did

in some of the most stressful,

challenging circumstances

that we could ever imagine,

where many of us with egos

would gladly take praise,

but instead he thoughtfully

spread the praise to others.

That's just one of many examples.

Yeah, recognition is so important

as a founder or leader of any kind.

There was this one

conceptualization that I liked.

I think it was from good to great.

It was like the concept of

the window in the mirror.

It's like whenever

things are going wrong,

look in the mirror,

only blame yourself when

things are going right.

Only look out at the team.

And I found it to be really impactful.

And I think it really helped,

makes a big difference

in an organization team

trying to accomplish something.

If they're all just trying to find ways

to praise each other,

it's so much. Oh my gosh.

It goes so far.

Absolutely.

And then the thing is,

is that because we're

never going to accomplish

something extraordinary by ourselves,

we are going to need others with us.

And don't we want to create a culture

where we all lift each other up,

knowing that's the only way

we're really going to win.

So I'm with you on

Daniel, and that's a great book.

Good to great.

That's another good book too.

I think that might be a

good place to end things on.

Recognizing the value of others,

like the contribution of others,

the efforts of others.

I think that's where it all begins.

Any journey to greatness,

whether it's animal treatment

or anything else in the

world, sustainability.

Josh, it has been an

absolute pleasure having you.

I've learned so much from you today.

And I'm sure our

listeners will have learned

plenty from you as well.

Any parting words for

us before we sign off?

Well, Daniel, I appreciate you.

Thank you for having me on.

Looking forward to

hearing your other guests

that you have on in the future.

And really appreciate you

being such a good person

to bring these topics and

these issues to everybody.

So really just a lot of gratitude to you.

Thank you, Josh.

It's been a pleasure.